Difficult Conversations In Alienation (How to Have Them)

you are listening to the Beyond The High Road podcast with Shelby Milford episode number 63 stay tuned welcome to be on the high road hey guys we are going to be talking today about having difficult conversations I was doing the notes before coming on just now and we could have this could be a like three-part series because I was thinking that it really just depends too on who we're addressing like who we're having the difficult conversation with coming from the many difficult conversations that I think that we have all had with our attorneys Guardian ad Liams therapists our exes our children we could have this conversation for days there's so much to talk about but I figured because of the

holidays coming up and it's it's just that kind of that time of year when we're engaging with people that we otherwise maybe wouldn't be interacting with and then also this time of year we as parents experiencing alienation emotions just tend to run high for so many different reasons okay so we as human beings I haven't done the research on this but I feel like it's hardwired into us to want to be right maybe I haven't thought that all the way through I'm sure it's hardwired into us to want to be right because we want to be able to predict that is our tendency and so when we're not right then that infers that our predictions weren't right it's a domination thing too being right being

the one who wins is a false sense of power actually but we all go after it anyway in when you're in a argument with uh significant other especially I'm sure you have been there you know that you're right and you feel like you need to fight until the end to prove and make the other person that you're in conversation with I wouldn't even call that really a conversation but that you're arguing with make them see that you're right and possibly even have them admit to you out loud that you are right do you know what I'm saying it is like no now just go ahead and tell me I'm right tell me I'm right yeah I know I know I know I know I told you so that is I think it's a competitive thing with us

and it can be humorous but it also most of the time it is not productive the back and forth on who's right maybe the playful kind but when you are really going at it with somebody about who is right who is wrong you they need to see my way what ends up happening is that by be wanting to be right I'm only speaking by the way before I even continue this I am only speaking about to you because you're the one that's listening to this or watching this whatever you're doing we cannot change the other person and you are the only person we only need one person to be applying what I'm getting ready to tell you in order to have a successful difficult conversation so you

don't need the other person to comply with all of this stuff too a difficult conversation if done quote unquote correctly is actually an opportunity for you to become closer with the person you're in conversation with it's an opportunity for you guys to grow closer for you to get to know each other for you to be vulnerable therefore connecting on a deeper level and having that intimacy and by intimacy I'm sure that you know what I mean that you can have in intimacy with your mother with your sister with your brother with your father it doesn't matter intimacy just means that there's a level of connection that is much deeper than maybe you had before or that you have with somebody

else so any difficult conversation any Uncharted water really is is an opportunity for deeper connection but when you prioritize your need to be right over your connection with the person with what you ultimately want with for even from the other person which is trust intimacy then you block that from happening you effectively block that because your need to be right causes them to be defensive you to be offensive or vice versa right and then so nobody's connecting anywhere instead you guys are just butting heads right so you never really get what you really want out of the conversation anyway unless of course like your brain will want to tell you in those moments well

all I really want is to be right okay well you can do that but do you really just want to be right because being right getting that I want to say cheap satisfaction like that quick instant gratification of being right like ha I was right they even told me I was right it is a cheap quickly fading sense of false power false satisfaction it doesn't ever last I mean it rarely lasts I should say there are those competitive friendships that you may have had since college or high school or whatever or even like a sibling rivalry that can be of that nature but I'm not addressing that right now what I'm addressing right now is these difficult conversations that need to be right in those this goes

against pretty much everything that we intuitively would want to do but this is the way that works tried and true I promise you every every time that I have applied this and I apply this now to all areas of my life okay so I know that this is going to sound ass backwards it's going to seem like what are you talking about but I'm telling you just stay with me here while I provide the the this example and then how you do this successfully so that because the goal here is I'm assuming the goal is always for me to walk away feeling good about how I behaved in a situation and feeling good about my reasons for behaving in the way that I did right that's really truly in the end what I

want and maybe if there's some gained closeness connection then that is a bonus But ultimately what I want is to feel at peace and good about how I've shown up what my reasons are for showing up that way this is pre-con conversation with them it's best to remember a couple few things other adults get to act however they want to act and they get to feel however they want to feel that is on them and that is good news because then you don't have to try to control that which seems like not fun because bummer we can't control how other people feel about us or what they say about us or how they act towards us but at the same time time it's such a relief because then that gives you the

opportunity to have much more agency over your own self take responsibility over yourself and what your actions are and what they do is what they do again back to the boundaries episode but if you are repeating a story to yourself that they should be behaving differently if they want to be in your life that story is hurting you and that's what I want you to know first and I can feel you guys right now through this screen being like but I'm right but they should act differently but they should do blah blah blah but they should want to fill in the blank I get you I'm not saying that I don't agree with you I'm saying that that story is affecting you in a way that's not comfortable for you and

it's probably not productive effective for your ultimate goal okay so you believing that they should act differently is only causing you unnecessary suffering they are acting the way that they should act like Byron Katie says how do we know something should be because it is it already is when you argue with reality you lose but 100% of the time which is also Byron Katie basically don't go in to any conversation whether that's the conversation you're having with yourself about then or the conversation that you're getting ready to have with them don't go in expecting them to change they're not going to change if they change they're it isn't going to be with like a lasting kind of change and it

they might be going in Kicking and Screaming if they do do the change and unless those people are your children like your young children and even in our situation and still don't think that's a good idea then you probably don't want that you don't I know that most of us don't really want other people to do things for us if they don't really want to do them I can remember like being really young and in my one of my first relationships and being so mad at my boyfriend for not wanting to do the things that I thought that every boyfriend should do I don't even remember what the things were I'm sure they were like ludicrous but I can remember being so upset with him that he

didn't actually want to do those things even though he was doing them I was mad because he didn't want to do them most of us don't want other people doing things like in vain against their will that sucks that sucks for everybody don't go and expecting them to change and when you're telling yourself that they should behave differently you are going to keep yourself miserable okay so that is um one you will want to tell yourself you will want to tell them you will want to tell me maybe even right now that you are right that they behaved really poorly that they are doing really shitty things I get that I again I do not disagree with you on that whatever it is that you're saying that they've

done I'm not saying that you're not quote unquote right what I'm saying is you're continuing to go down that route about something that's already happened is causing you pain and you expecting them to be different than they are is only going to cause them to throw up their defenses or go on the offense depending on what the scenario is nobody likes to be told what to do nobody likes to be told that they're not enough or they're not doing it right okay even if that person is acting like a complete dick so you won't get far by trying to get them to change or get them to see where you're coming from if that is your only goal so yeah this is all like your prame if you've got this thing that

happened a while back and you've been like replaying this story and you're so mad at them and you're finally ready to have a conversation this is the kind of stuff that you think about and consider before you go in to that conversation okay so you don't want to go in mad I think that's just a no-brainer it's a given you don't go in Mad frustrated aggravated any of that or feeling like a victim so if you are in that place where you you're feeling like they did you wrong and now you can't do blah that place then I want you to empower yourself before you go in to have the conversation with them okay take responsibility for your own emotion they didn't cause you to do blah blah blah

they did something and you thought something that caused you to feel blank so let's say you feel betray beted by your sibling let's say you feel betrayed because your sibling went to lunch with your ex and you didn't know about it until you found out from a third party so you feel in your mind you're like they did that I feel betrayed you remember from last week we went through all of this that that was the perfect setup for this so instead of going into that conversation having that difficult conversation where you're like you went to lunch with my ex without letting me know you kept that from me you lied to me you betrayed me you guys can all imagine how that would go over in a

conversation with somebody telling the per the other person that they're a liar that they betrayed you chances are that is not going to go well during that conversation and chances are walls are going to go up defenses offenses war and everybody walks away in a place okay lots of Tears lots of yelling so instead of repeating that story to yourself they betrayed me you could opt to neutralize your story your story is they betrayed me right neutralize that by because that's pretty activating if I think they betrayed me I actually feel activated and I don't that story isn't even true for me okay so if instead you want to pull only the facts this is for you pregame pre-con

conversation all right so what why do I feel betrayed what is it that they've done give me exactly like you want to be very specific the facts are always neutral and they rarely have adjectives so how did this come about oh right so and so told me that they went out to lunch and your Remer going to say they've had plenty of opportunities need to tell me and they never told me we talked on the phone five different times after that in fact we had lunch the next day and they never told me then you know what I'm saying you're gonna have all of this other story that goes along with it but the fact of the matter is what caused you to have a story sibling went to lunch with other

parent you were not notified they didn't tell you that is a fact everybody could agree on it it's a neutral statement now that you had the fact why does this bother you I'm making this mean that they're not supportive of me and as a result I feel hurt now you have agency you have taken ownership of your own emotions because you have established that it's a story you have about what they've done that is causing you to feel a certain way so now when you go you can attempt to have a productive conversation with them what I try to do before I ever go and have the conversation I ask myself what it is I'm trying to accomplish here because I want to make sure that I'm not just going

there to manipulate them into taking my side like understanding and seeing my side and changing their ways because if that is my goal I promise you nine and a half times out of 10 it will not go well it will turn into a power struggle and that's pretty much how I checked myself is like what is my objective here why am I bringing this up to them if it is because I want to promote uh a place of intimacy of connection with my sibling then yes that's a green light go have the conversation if you're still in the place where you're like they should know better they need to know how I feel because that's not how siblings act toward each other that's not going to go

well so my suggestion to you is to not yet go until you've come to a place where you can find how you you can take responsibility for your own emotion I'm telling myself a story that because they did this that they don't love me I feel rejected I feel not considered right something like that and so once you have that thought that's in between the facts and your emotion like what your story is causing you to feel again not victim blaming there's no blame on you it's it's a way to empower yourself okay once you have that then chances are you already feel a lot better because you're stepping into your power there it's like oh okay I do have a story about this I

don't you may not ever like what they've done and I'm definitely not insinuating that you get to a place where you do like what they've done not at all please yeah they can do crappy things as I we've talked about before people do crappy things all the time everybody you me everybody has done crappy things before most of the time we don't even realize we're doing them we have thoughts in our head that cause us to think that we are correct in the moment for doing whatever we've done every everything we do is because of a thought that we're thinking so when we think about it that way then it kind of takes the like demonizing out of everybody if you can get there that would be

excellent because your sibling or whoever is wrong to you is only doing what they're doing because of a series of thoughts causing them to believe that this is the right thing for them to do I mean there are times when people do things without considering but again still there's another thought that's there that has them considering that what they're doing is the right thing so yeah so get to the place where you can take responsibility for your own emotions and when you go in to have the conversation with them know what you are your objective is why you're going to have the conversation with them maybe it's just simply listen I need to set a boundary here I want to continue this

relationship with this person I don't want to continue this relationship with this person that's a totally valid conversation too whatever your objective objective is just know it and that way you don't also get off track so whatever it is I want to continue I don't want to continue I just want to let them know because this is an opportunity for me to be clear about how I like to run my relationships whatever it is so long as you're not trying to change that okay so when you go to have the conversation it might be helpful depending you know whoever you're talking with you know the best way to say this but it's something to the effect of I want to have a conversation that I think is definitely

not going to be comfortable for me and I can imagine might not be comfortable for you either if I was in your shoes or whatever say it however feels the most real for you but I value this relationship and I want us to fill in the blank continue our relationship have closure to the relationship grow our bond whatever it is but be vulnerable in that moment and true even if you're feeling an emotion maybe say I'm feeling super nervous about going into this conversation but it's worth it it's worth it for me to put myself out there and to have this with you because I Val value you I value US whatever that much it is that important to me so go in with that buffer if you will like something that's

just stating what's getting ready to happen but everybody really just talking about this earlier we like predictability nobody's being blindsided you're saying it upfront look this is a conversation I don't know it's going to be comfortable for either of us but I value you I value us too much to not have it I think that Honesty promotes intimacy however you want to say it I respect us especially if your ego is still affected I respect us enough to have this conversation too much to not have this conversation sometimes saying I respect you when you're not respecting what they've done is far-fetched so you don't have to go that far say what is true especially from the get-go because

if you're not if you are guarded and if you don't offer up some vulnerability their walls are going to go up and you're not going to get what you need to get accomplished and by the way before I even go any further I do want to say too that let's say somebody's walls do go up there is nothing wrong and it's not considered an unsuccessful conversation if you need to break for a little while and be like all right let's revisit this there's nothing wrong with that in fact I think that is sometimes the most productive thing to do let's Circle back on this in an hour in a day in a month whatever all right so acknowledge how they might be feeling to or like how

this might not be the most comfortable conversation too so that they also know that you are considering their side of things so they immediately that will often times cause them to think believe that you are considering how they feel in this two-way Exchange all right then I have two ways of doing this if it's something like I was just talking about they have done something you have a story about it it's upsetting you like I was just saying they went out to lunch then you want to tell them what it is with facts only what is bothering you you went out to lunch on three separate occasions and I didn't know about it I found out from not you didn't tell me or I didn't find out until so

and so had to tell me all that is like hooking them right baiting them so instead I found out from blah blah blah simple as that facts and facts alone okay then after you state why you're upset then you say the story I'm telling myself is just like you did pregame what I'm making that mean that you went out to lunch in my brain is that you don't respect me and that makes me feel hurt and then let that be okay see how that lands with them I do have an extra step that you can add in here if it is as cut and dry as the example I'm about to give you let's say you your significant other you guys just have one car for whatever reason I actually had one car with my

daughter's father for a long time so you guys just have one car and you have a hearing in the morning and they went to go drop their kiddo off at school and they told you they would be back by 7:00 a.m. and you have to be at court at 8: a.m. let's say significant other decided to make a few stops along the way they went to go get donuts they went to the grocery store they were TR La lying on the way home okay so they didn't show back up to the house until 7:35 in the morning that's only leaving you 25 minutes to get door too and there's parking and you live 25 minutes away from the courthouse so you can't in this situation on the spot or maybe you say this to them afterwards you said that

you would be here at 7:15 you didn't show up until 7:35 I have court a hearing at 8:00 a.m. downtown the impact that this caused me when you did this is that I showed up late to my hearing for my child those are all facts so then you tell them what you were making those facts me what I'm making that mean the story I'm telling myself is that you do not care about the outcome of the hearing that we had you did not care about the outcome of M and my kiddos reunification process that you do not consider me before you consider yourself and your desire for donuts what whatever it is and this caused me to steal Blah Blah Blah Blah by doing that you are showing them the impact you were

saying look you said you were going to be home at this time and you weren't and this caused me to be late to court this is my child we're talking about so it's not like you're ignoring the any pertinent info here you are supplying it to them but you're not blaming them you're just telling them in a very effective way what they do with it now is an entirely different thing we don't know it really depends on who your significant other is in this scenario I had a very similar situation with my significant other with the last guy with court and the car situation and it did not go well it was I can laugh about it now but it was a disaster I didn't have this work back then and I didn't say it as

effectively as I would now but whatever they do with it is fine now I know if I was to say that back then I would have felt good about how I showed up what I said what I did my ability to express what it is that I need not even just from my significant other but what I need in general I need a car and if they are impeding my ability to use my car maybe they don't ever take my car again from here on out or from the time that I state that boundary if you're late with the car again then I will not allow you to use my car whatever it is that's worth it to you that you will follow through with you are living in true integrity and here's another thing is that no matter who we're talking about

here I think it is extremely important to remember that what you're expecting from them you want them to listen to you respect you to whatever it is you that you are doing that as well that you are listening to them that you are respecting them even if you feel like they're not respecting you okay because again that's how you're going to walk away feeling with your head held high right is if Whatever You're Expecting from them you give that to them and some people will say yeah but why do I have to be the bigger person why do I have to be the one always I always have to be the one I can't tell you how many times I said that how many times I felt that like it's like in your gut that's like

that turning like I always am the one one I always am the bigger person I always am the one that does the thing and tries to lead by example and they never follow with that attitude nothing goes well and why not be the one why not it feels better to be the one when you're not expecting them to not be the one do you know what I'm saying just don't worry about how they're showing up you just take care of you you let them know you be the one that loves you be the one that goes over and above and acts out of love for you for them for y'all together for everybody involved when you do that you cannot lose because When You're Expecting for them to follow you because you've led by example if

you're expecting them to follow a suit you're going to be really disappointed so instead just expect that they won't fall in line that they won't act in a loving or respectful way and then first off you're never disappointed but also choosing to love always feels better than all the other emotions choosing to act from a place of love always feels better so before I go because I just said I just this was much longer than I thought it was going to be um is that I want to give you guys a few little diffusers if you will that might help in your conversations over the holidays okay one of my favorite ways to go into a conversation with somebody if you're not following the the little template

that I just gave you if it's something that you guys are just like having the argument in the moment and it's about whatever it is and you don't have an issue that you wanted to bring to the table but it's just an one of those oneoff arguments then you can simply say please tell me why you're right and then choose curiosity okay allow them and tell them and make sure that you're not saying that in a snarky way but instead to be like please tell me like everything tell me all the reasons why you right I want to know I really truly want to hear you and then sit back and let them tell you let them tell you there there's literally absolutely nothing that can go wrong by

you opening up your ears and allowing them to share with you their side you can only gain knowledge you can only gain Insight it doesn't mean that you have to agree with them in the end but when you give people the stage when you allow them that open place and you're really truly really listening without being like but or like writing down notes angrily so that you'll remember this point for later so that you can tell them blah blah make your point you know what I'm saying I I don't know anything about that but yeah so when you give them that space and relaxedly is that a word you know what I'm saying ask them like tell me everything tell me why you're right I want to know when you

come from that place it's like the other person can't go on the offense or the defense I mean they may start but it's really it is a little confusing to most people like what you want me to tell you all the reasons I tell you it's a fun little human experiment to do that most people are completely taken aback with it by it so try that okay so tell me all the reasons tell me everything why you're right not why you think you're right but tell me why you're right I want to know you can only gain power by doing this I promise you it sounds like you wouldn't but I'm telling you it's amazing okay so tell me why you're right let them tell their story when they're

done you relay back their story in only facts with no emotion can we agree on these facts they're likely going to say yes if you've done your job unless they're trying to be whatever and then you can each have a sentence like well what I'm making that mean is that you're prioritizing your kid getting donuts is more important than my relationship with my kid and then they get a line too you each get a line this is the way my coach does it and then after you each tell your one sentence of story about the facts that you've agreed upon then put that to bed and you only look for solutions from now on on this is how we're going to do it moving forward you get specific on it but y'all come to

like put your heads together and brainstorm how what you're going to do from here and maybe you don't even have a solution readily available for how you handle the car moving forward but you can have a solution for how you guys are going to handle y'all moving forward okay if this is somebody that you want to remain in relationship with so you can get creative with that you get it right so that is the other way to go about doing it if this is somebody that you're in a relation whatever yeah this just another way to go about doing it ways to diffuse it are I like to say I can see where you're coming from even if you don't agree with what the that person is saying you can respond with I

can see why you would think that that is a valid point you make there's truth to what you're saying doesn't mean that just because there's some truth to what they're saying that is your truth okay if you're the one that's telling the reason why you're upset you can say I can see that you disagree with me tell me why tell me all the reasons why you're disagreeing with me right now I want to know your side I want to know where you're coming from all of those sentences indicate that you care that you are willing to see their side that you're not only focused on your benefit that you are the benefit the outcome for you and you alone you really do want to have the interaction with them and the

connection with them that you care about what is happening with them okay so no matter who you're having a conversation with those last few different diffusers that I gave you those will always work whether that's a business relationship whether that's a personal whatever oh and by the way with there's truth to that if you find yourself getting activated when they are telling their side of the story remember that if they have said something and they're not following this little formula that I'm giving to you guys right now if they're not following this which chances are they are not okay they're not supposed to follow anything this is for your benefit this is only for you it can be

unless this is a significant other you probably really won't even tell anybody that you're following any sort of suggestion or template but if you feel activated if you are feeling defensive whatever they have said toward you about you there is likely somewhere in you believes that there's an inkling of Truth to what they've said okay or whatever you're in like you think that they're saying like if you're reading between the lines of something that they say to you and they say you're always late and somehow you made that mean in your mind that you're a bad parent right if you get upset with them for that then somewhere in you you're questioning that for yourself I know it's not true you

know it's not not true but somewhere in you the shame part of you is already questioning that for yourself so it's really good to notice take ownership of what is yours and what is theirs right like really know oh the reason this is affecting me is because my brain is telling me that there's truth to that and so then that's like information for you things for you to work on if you want to okay so hopefully that is helpful during this time of year that was so much information hopefully I got it all in yeah hopefully you can have some less difficult conversations or maybe they're the same difficult but they're much more productive during this holiday season okay hopefully you

develop more intimacy with those that you choose to spend your time with also too just remember to I just said choose to spend your time with and I just want to it something just came up in me that made me think in the holidays time we don't always choose to spend time with these people we just have to spend time with these people but I want to offer that you don't have to do anything you don't want to do okay so back to like if a family member is being in your mind disrespectful inconsiderate not sensitive to how you think they should be acting if they're being let's just say it then remind yourself too that like you don't have to be spending time with then and pick your

battles like maybe you don't want them acting that way but you also want to remain in a relationship with them because maybe they have kids and you love hanging out with their kids so you do actually want to continue the relationship be honest with yourself about that no I really want to continue your relationship and here's why okay so make sure you're like inspecting all of the areas all of your your agenda right on all levels like do you want to remain in relationship with with them why because they've got kids that I really like may not you may not be thrilled with them right now but you really do want to continue this relationship and the only or the relationship with the

kids you know the only way that you can is by remaining in relationship with the parent right so pick your battles if it's worth make it make sure that you're empowering yourself where you can and be real honest about your reasons why you're having this conversation and why you want to continue these relationships or not continue these relationships whatever they are those are everything if you do not like your reasons for doing whatever you're doing you're going to have a very hard time with all of this okay so make sure you like your reasons why you're going to do any of this moving forward anything you do moving forward okay so know your reasons like your reason okay all right guys

have a wonderful week thanks so much for listening today guys I'm honored that you chose to share your time with me if you like what you've been hearing and you want more come join me in the new monthly membership where we take the concepts that you hear about here and using a logical framework you learn to apply them to your specific situations upgrading your thoughts and your life even while experiencing the grief of alienation for more information go to beyond the high road.com see you soon